The caretaker out-of Joanna from Wales, spouse off Llywelyn abdominal Iorwerth

After the my personal report on the children from Llywelyn Fawr and you can Joanna while the responses they obtained, I seemed once more from the genealogical users about Gwladus Ddu. Even though it is correct, once the several genealogists point out, you to definitely throughout the lack of unique evidence in some manner, the newest term of the mom from Gwladus Ddu need remain ‘unknown’, I discovered no reason to change my completion that their own mother is Joanna rather than Tangwystyl.

Vat

You to definitely next supply on the subject of their college students ‘s the after the abstract on the ‘Kings and Queens out-of Britain’ a respected guide, written by Oxford School Force, page 106:

‘Llywelyn ab Iorwerth, b.1173, child out of Iorwerth Drwyndwn (‘Flatnose’) and you may Marared, daughter of Madog ap Maredudd; acc. eastern Gwynedd 1195; married Joan, illegitimate child regarding Queen John, 1205; issue: Gruffudd (illegitimate), Dafydd, Gwenllian, Helen, Gwladus, Margaret, Susanna; died 11 April 1240; buried: Aberconwy.’

To prove it is not simply me personally one thinks thus, let me quote that genealogist that is good partner off Sharon: “I am most fond of Sharon Kay Penman’s courses. While they are not strictly biographical, I believe warmer relying on their own try to ‘fill in this new blanks’ (considering the quantity of research she naturally set in her instructions), compared to in reality mentioning particular genealogical source that i attended around the in my own search (I’m sure all of us stumble on supplies like that). To help you whoever has not even discover their own functions, I would suggest it very very, particularly if you want to get an end up being for what lifetime are instance 800 years back.”

Their unique browse to have ‘HBD’, ‘Falls the latest Shadow’ and ‘This new Reckoning’, accomplished till the advent of the online, try its the

Adopting the issues posed vietnamcupid of the Beth, Suzanne and you will Sandy in particular, I embark on evaluating the newest label regarding Joanna’s mother (regarded hereafter, having simple reference since the ‘Clemence’ maybe not ‘Clementia’) by way of an event to your in order to-be-queen John. This action proved to be more complex than simply I would enjoys believe you can easily! Immediately after running right up of numerous blind alleys, primarily using seeking to get together again this new chronology of just one towards most other, I have paid on which follows. I really don’t claim that what i wrote was definitive in almost any figure otherwise setting, additionally the facts are that individuals will probably not be sure away from their unique name.

(a) Brand new illegitimate Joanna, child away from “Clemence,” is certainly produced away from wedlock –– as it is proved by the Honorius III’s decree claiming their unique genuine in April 1226, regardless if rather than prejudice into the king otherwise realm of England (i.elizabeth., offering their unique no claim to this throne). The new decree, which has been transcribed throughout the brand spanking new, unpublished Sign in from Honorius III (Reg. thirteen, fol. 122 ), states inter alia you to “Johannes Rex anglie solutus te genuerit de soluta,” and this, I am informed, means “King John of The united kingdomt, whenever solitary , fathered you by the a single lady.”

It means Joanna have been created zero afterwards than 1189 when John partnered Isabella from Gloucester. Their particular mom, “Clemence” is actually probably French otherwise Norman, as facts on the patent rolls out-of John’s rule suggests that Joan try introduced out-of Normandy so you’re able to The united kingdomt when you look at the December 1203, to arrange to have matrimony so you’re able to Llywelyn ab Iorwerth (come across less than). Joanna passed away within the Feb 1237.

(b) John’s genuine daughter Joan, by Isabella from Angouleme (hitched to help you John into the 1200 from the years a dozen!), was created at the Gloucester towards the twenty two July 1210 (understand the Tewkesbury Annals about Goes Collection, vol. thirty-six.i, p. 59; new Worcester Annals, ibid., vol. 36.iv, p. 399; while the Rotuli Litterarum Patencium getting John’s Leadership, pp. 124, 143). This is basically the Joan exactly who next hitched Alexander II out-of Scotland and you can she passed away into the 1238, particular weeks immediately following Joanna (this could make up a few of the misunderstandings evident within one or two women). She leftover no hassle because of the Alexander II.